Adam Cherubini
WoodCentral Special Guest Chat

Adam Cherubini

February 22, 2005

............................ Adam_Cherubini joined.............
Ellis Hello Adam.
Chris_Schwarz The man of the half hour!
MikeGnSC Howdy Adam
Ellis Welcome to the WC chat.
Adam_Cherubini Welcome to my 15 minutes gentlemen
Chris_Schwarz So Adam, Before we dive in, what are we drinking this evening?
Adam_Cherubini Chris, What are we drinking this evening? I'm picturing you cracking a fine stout this evening
Chris_Schwarz Hilarious.
Adam_Cherubini Oh that's too funny. Great minds drink alike.
Adam_Cherubini Tetley's
Chris_Schwarz Tonight it's "Bad Elmer's Porter" Which my wife calls "Bad Christopher's Porter."
Ellis What would an eighteenth century woodworker drink?
Dean_J_in_MN English Mild?
Adam_Cherubini Beer
Adam_Cherubini Whatever he had, as long as it was beer
Chris_Schwarz Hear hear.
Adam_Cherubini Hail, hail the gang's all here!
Ellis I would like to welcome our guest host Chris Schwarz and his very special guest, Adam Cherubini
Chris_Schwarz Thanks Ellis
Adam_Cherubini Hi everybody. Thanks for having us
Ellis Our pleasure.
Chris_Schwarz Before we launch into this discussion, I'd like to say a few quick words about Adam. One of the big problems in all forms of journalism is what the pointy heads call "validation by repetition." This is where the same stuff gets repeated so many times (i.e. hand plane soles must be 100 percent completely mil-spec flat) that it becomes gospel. Irrefutable. So when most of us first encounter Adam and his take on woodworking, it's like a bucket of ice water down the pants. When you first stumbled on one of his posts here, I'm sure many of you asked: "Who is this cat?" And that's why we're here tonight.
Chris_Schwarz First question?
Carole_Valentine Well I for one really enjoyed your article on the striking knife, Adam!
Chris_Schwarz I presume that your first exposure to woodworking was through your family's boatbuilding business. Even accounting for that, you've become immersed in the craft in a way unlike most woodworkers I know – first with the power tools and then evolving (or devolving) into hand-tool use. You skipped the power tool part of the 12-step and went straight to "spiritual awakening." Could you tell us how that happened?
Adam_Cherubini Hey wait! Come back! We get better!
Chris_Schwarz No, we don't. That's all I got.
Ellis :-)
Adam_Cherubini My Dad was sick when I was of age to learn the family trade so I never learned jack. I saw some stuff. But I learned as much from you guys as anywhere. From you and like you.
Chris_Schwarz So when did woodworking become important?
Adam_Cherubini Maybe that's why I'm here tonight
Adam_Cherubini Anybody else like fancy furniture?
Chris_Schwarz Like "Shaker"?
MikeGnSC if i could make it...i would
mike_recchione Like Ikea?
Carole_Valentine LOL
Ellis Chris, I'm intrigued by Adam's immersion in early trades. I would like to know more about how to relate those early skills and sensibilities to today's hectic schedule.
Adam_Cherubini You can Mike, and that's that point here. If i can, you can
Ellis To me, fancy is Chippendale.
William Depends on your definition of "fancy." Shaker isn't fancy enough for me. But there is lots of furniture that is way too fancy.
Adam_Cherubini This might take a second Ellis, but worth noting
MikeGnSC to me fancy is ball and claw legs/feet and ornate carvings
Ellis This is a real interest to me, Adam.
Adam_Cherubini As busy as we are, as pressed for cash as we are, that's why early trades make sense. We have more in common with 18th craftshops than 19th century factories
Ellis In my shop, I like to keep things flowing. I imagine the old craftsmen did it even better.
MikeGnSC you've seen my shop
Adam_Cherubini You can flow work by sequencing your work. By not 4-squaring and working to a cutting list
Chris_Schwarz One of the most shocking figures I ever saw was the amount of time it took an 18th century shop to turn out a particular piece of furniture.
Adam_Cherubini You plane a little, join a little, saw a little each day
Ellis How shocking was it?
Chris_Schwarz It was in Jeffrey Greene's book
Adam_Cherubini We need to do a lot more research in that area. That's what the Hand Tool challenge was about
mike_recchione Adam, did you mean you work to a cutting list, or you don't?
Dan_D short or long time Chris?
Chris_Schwarz And it was high boys in a few days
Carole_Valentine 4-squaring? Am I the only newbie who doesn't know what you mean?
Chris_Schwarz very very short
Adam_Cherubini Just like you Mike. I don't
Dan_D Adam, are you still planning to institutionalize the challenge at WC?
Adam_Cherubini Absolutely. But i want better projects and better pictures and i want to plow in all Ellis and your comments
Ellis Right, Chris. Those guys didn't waste time, and look what they created. Not that we all need to be so effective.
Russ Short time, many man hours
Chris_Schwarz It's about focusing your attention where it's important.
MikeGnSC what about those peices that took craftsmen several years to build...was it because it took that long to find the right piece of wood for each particular panel or drawer front, ect?
William 4-square means basically the same as S4S. two faces and two edges flat and square to each other.
Dan_D Adam, What do you mean about better projects?
Adam_Cherubini Mike- The documentary evidence suggest one week for a chest 3 for a secretary
Chris_Schwarz How many men?
Chris_Schwarz I mean, it's not one guy on a secretary is it?
Dan_D I think that the few directions given gave it a lot of character. You really need to think and people came up with things similar, but different. I really liked the results.
Adam_Cherubini Just imagine what a 6 month piece would cost now. Who could possibly buy such work.
Russ 1 craftsman and 6 apprentices??
Chris_Schwarz We get caught up in this "single maker" mentality. Was it a collaborative effort?
Adam_Cherubini We don't know how many guys, we only know the price. We can back off from there to mandays/manweeks
Chris_Schwarz And what do you conclude?
Adam_Cherubini Apprentices may not have been paid, but somebody still got billed, right?
Jeff_Schmidt I don't think there was much collaboration as we think of it in our "team" environment. Very top down authortarian I should think.
Adam_Cherubini HEY JEFF-- Right. That's what i think, but others disagree
Chris_Schwarz In a pro shop you have several guys doing different jobs. Not like home guys build furniture.
mike_recchione Adam - the urban legend is that the apprentices did the work that machines do today - ripping, scrubbing, etc. Your research has led you to conclude that that wasn't the case. Could you talk about the actual workflow in a cabinet shop?
Chris_Schwarz Good one mike
MikeGnSC i figured the apprentices did the "grunt" work
Chris_Schwarz Especially since we call them our "tailed apprentices"
MikeGnSC kind of like a carpenter's helper today
mike_recchione But I believe that wasn't actually true.
Adam_Cherubini Mike, We just don't know for sure. But experimentally, it doesn't work to have some mule in the shop-That's industrial revolution thinking. Projects just weren't assembled that way
Chris_Schwarz Were apprentices just given simpler projects?
Chris_Schwarz Perhaps something painted?
mike_recchione My grandfather apprenticed in a shop that might as well have been 18th century. I still remember some of his stories
Adam_Cherubini I can only saw as long as I can run.--half hour okay. One hour, and I'm pretty spent
Chris_Schwarz And so we're not as lazy as we think we are then?
Adam_Cherubini And these sub processes only need to be what the master needs. You decide as you saw
MikeGnSC an apprentisship was a considerable amount of time? started at the bottom cleaning up and worked up to more important tasks
gypsydave_in_alabama is there no documentation of the processes?
mike_recchione Also - remember the apprentices were between 11 and 17 years old. Could an 11 year old rip hardwood all day and not die?
Adam_Cherubini None Dave
Chris_Schwarz There certainly is documentation of the prices for the processes.
Adam_Cherubini Well, now you're talking about London rules. The early apprentices were in by 18, out by 25
Chris_Schwarz So Adam, let's talk about the processes
mike_recchione That's interesting. My grandfather was apprenticed at 11. He was married and had his own shop by 17.
davek Charles Hayward ran articles on his personal apprentiship around 1914 in Working Wood in the 1980's
Chris_Schwarz How did you start researching chisels, for example?
Adam_Cherubini I tried to cut mortises the way I read and I couldn't do it
Chris_Schwarz I've been working with one of yours and it's ... weird
Chris_Schwarz Read in a woodworking magazine?
Rob_in_KS Any idea on how many people worked under the master? Would it be one or two able to work almost independently, then another one or two under the "squire" and master?
Dan_D What do you mean weird, Chris?
Jeff_Schmidt One of his mortise chisels?
Adam_Cherubini Yeah, whaddya mean?
Chris_Schwarz No a firmer.
Adam_Cherubini Recchione didn't like it either
Chris_Schwarz I used it like Moxon and you suggest.
Chris_Schwarz I almost dislocated my shoulder after a day at it.
Ellis :-)
Adam_Cherubini I'm not convinced I'm right guys. I don't know it all. Haven't got it all figured out.
Chris_Schwarz Does it get better (the work not the shoulder)
Dean_J_in_MN Yes, Adam, describe that bit in Moxon. I've sat with the book and a chisle in hand and not sure I have that grip down?
MikeGnSC In the eighteenth C, didn't an apprentis have to make all their own tools/
mike_recchione Actually, I adopted your method for mortises after you demonstrated it at CJWA, and it's what I've used ever since.
Adam_Cherubini No Mike
Chris_Schwarz Right hand grabs the blade.
Chris_Schwarz Pinky behind the blade
JimC I agree with Chris, I tried it and had a sore elbow for a couple of days
Dean_J_in_MN yep so far
Adam_Cherubini I don't use that grip, but watch for an upcoming article
Chris_Schwarz Left hand on the handle. Against the shoulder.
Chris_Schwarz Push. Bevel down.
JimC It worked good for defing the mortise, though
Chris_Schwarz Your whole body is like a hand plane.
Chris_Schwarz You are the frog.
Dan_D ribit ::smile
Chris_Schwarz It works.
Dean_J_in_MN OK., that is what I came up with too. Just cut all the mortises for a table with that method. ..
Chris_Schwarz There's a learning curve.
William I tried what Adam showed us at CJWA, too. It seemed to start out OK, but either I was doing something wrong, or I'm going to need a lot more discipline and practice.
Chris_Schwarz I was working with bench height as a factor, too.
Adam_Cherubini Its not that hard, but you need the right handle on your chisel
Adam_Cherubini And it may not work in bubinga
Chris_Schwarz I think it's a valid technique. Don't get me wrong.
Dean_J_in_MN I have the "honking big" kirsh (sp?) handle Adam.
Adam_Cherubini HEY PAUL- nice knife, BTW
Chris_Schwarz But it's one of the harder things I've tried to pick up lately.
Dean_J_in_MN Yep, I questioned the method in hard maple, the legs I was working were walnut, much easier...
Adam_Cherubini I'll bet if you saw me do it, you might find it not so hard.
Chris_Schwarz Adam sent me these photos of this monstrous rabbet he made. And I'm convinced.
Dan_D a video?
Adam_Cherubini I don't see a lot of hard maple furniture.
Chris_Schwarz Good point.
Adam_Cherubini I don't see kiln dried Hmaple either :)
Joanne See, Ellis, we DO need little teaching videos on WC.
Chris_Schwarz How about flame maple?
Adam_Cherubini We need to be careful how we apply these techniques
Dean_J_in_MN And after my bench project, I don't want to see any more hard maple either. :)
Ellis (We're working on it....)
MikeGnSC how would it work on cherry?
Adam_Cherubini Works well on cherry
Chris_Schwarz Do you mean we need to be realistic?
Chris_Schwarz In goals and tools and materials?
MikeGnSC I just got some spalted cherry from my brother
Adam_Cherubini Now now. I'm just saying there are contextual bounds
Chris_Schwarz Can we dicuss old wood for a minute?
gypsydave_in_alabama contextual bounds?
Chris_Schwarz Was the old growth different to work?
Chris_Schwarz Was it straighter?
Jack_Ervin Old wood as in 18th century?
MikeGnSC I've worked with old growth wood but it was pine
Adam_Cherubini Funny you mention- I got some spy photos a few months ago of second growth HD crap in a 1720 chest
Chris_Schwarz I've found old pine to be hard to work...
Chris_Schwarz Like hard maple....
William If it were growing in a climax forest it should have been straighter and slower growing, due to competition from other trees.
MikeGnSC this was from an old cotton mill...heart pine
Adam_Cherubini Where there was a knot, the guy whacked it with a hatchet so he didn't have to plane it
Jeff_Schmidt Yes, old SYP can be very brittle.
Ellis Old growth wood is generally finer grain than contemporary wood.
MikeGnSC it burns good too :)
gypsydave_in_alabama big difference between old growth and old wood
Chris_Schwarz Yes, do you think the stuff we work with now would have been burned?
Adam_Cherubini Isn't it usually fine ring pitch
Chris_Schwarz Charcoal fodder?
Chris_Schwarz Fine ring pitch?
Ellis Yes, Adam, and climate, too.
Adam_Cherubini I think its a dead end for us, though. 18th century lumber doesn't make that much difference. Now, cuts of lumber...
Chris_Schwarz OK cuts of lumber....
John_H Adam, advice on a beginner trying to learn the old ways without using explatives? Books, videos etc??
Ellis What intrigues me is what lessons from the 18th century can be of use to our stressed-out woodworkers of today?
Chris_Schwarz Perhaps turning off the machines.
William I have some old white oak, but it is in an area that has been farmed since the 1600's, so it is not straight grained, but the rings are incredibly close together.
Chris_Schwarz William, does that make it harder or easier to work?
Adam_Cherubini John and Ellis- Two questions, one answer- Experimental archeology. Start from where they did. Understand their conditions, and you'll both find what you are looking for
glenn Hand tools themselves seem to relieve stress, primarily if the process, rather than an instant gratification, is the goal.
Chris_Schwarz But I don't think hand tools are slow.
gypsydave_in_alabama one of their conditions was a 16 hour workday
Adam_Cherubini Thomas Dennis cut down close to a dozen trees to get one or two good ones in the late 17th century. He was fined for cutting more than his share of the commons- Rob Tarule
glenn The tools aren't slow. Some users, maybe.
Ellis These folks worked in rustic conditions, yet produced extremely fine work.
Ellis Without benefit of tablesaws or spray booths or Shapton stones. How was that?
Chris_Schwarz Right tool for the job, Ellis.
William It was planted in the early 1700s, but came down in a storm a couple of years ago, so it is not seasoned for a long time. It is easier in some ways than new oak, because the rings are so close together that on a macro scale it acts more like a diffuse porous wood, but not quite as strong as wood with more dense latewood.
gypsydave_in_alabama they were taught by the best
Chris_Schwarz Don't use your smoothing plane for everything, Ellis.
Adam_Cherubini Yeah and they started with milled lumber like we do- different mill
Adam_Cherubini Those were white oaks specifically BTW, William
Paul_in_NJ I think they were motivated to put food on the table while many of us here do it just for fun.
John_H As a person who watched a lot of Norm, how would I learn about thier conditions and thier finished work?
Jeff_Schmidt And a mentality that did not think in terms of identical parts coming together in a final assembly as has already been discussed.
Dean_J_in_MN A key Jeff, I think.
Chris_Schwarz John H, good question.
Adam_Cherubini John, I'd start in a museum or looking at antiques. The more the better. Then e-mail me off line and I'll give you a reading list
Adam_Cherubini John- Its a short list. There isn't that much good information
pam I don't know, Ellis, nothing rustic about the Williamsburg workshop. Maybe candles instead of electric.
Jeff_Schmidt Yes, talk to someone who does a lot of restoration.
John_H I 'll take it, thanks!
Ellis If you don't have any machines, it's rustic.
Adam_Cherubini Hey pammy! That Hay shop isn't typical.
Chris_Schwarz I thought rustic was coppice woodworking
Adam_Cherubini Pam, we need to talk off line about that
Chris_Schwarz BTW, Adam just returned from the Hay shop.
Adam_Cherubini Keep it clean Chris. This is a family chat room
Ellis So, how did these craftsmen accomplish so much in so little time?
gypsydave_in_alabama there were machines----just no electricity
Jeff_Schmidt And what were you doing there, Adam?
pam Would love to, Adam.
Adam_Cherubini Williamsburg? I went to the conference last month
Chris_Schwarz I have the profanity filter on, but it didn't catch coppice...
Ellis Was it the apprentice system that they grew up with?
Jeff_Schmidt SAPFM?
Norman I noiced a foo-operated tablesaw in a 1897 tool catalog
Chris_Schwarz This was your first visit?
Ellis Everyone overlooked it Chris :-)
Adam_Cherubini Yep
Norman foot
Adam_Cherubini Yep to both questions
Chris_Schwarz What surprised you?
Adam_Cherubini I don't get foot operated table saws
Chris_Schwarz Was it the CNC machine in the back? (A legend?)
Jeff_Schmidt Did you get extended access to the folks at the Hay shop?
Chris_Schwarz Here's a personal admission. I've never been.
Adam_Cherubini I simply stayed an extra day and BSed
pam Did you wear your little ww outfit? :)
Jeff_Schmidt Was Mac Headley there?
pam BTW, none of the guys in the shop really wanted to bs when I was there asking questions like an idiot.
Adam_Cherubini Okay, Okay- They don't care what was typical. They only care what was there. There's no low income housing either, because it wasn't there. So we need to be careful when we use Wmsburg as an 18th c model
Adam_Cherubini Hey, I got to play the harpischord- "and very ill"
Chris_Schwarz How does Pennsbury stand as a model?
pam Sure it was, called slave quarters.
Jeff_Schmidt That explains the Nicholson benches :-)
Chris_Schwarz Better than Ulmia...
William For example, do you mean the C&W planes they use? Probably a lot higher quality workmanship and better steel than anyone had back then.
Carole_Valentine So what we see in W'burg and think as typical 18th c is not? Was the typical stuff much simpler and more utilitarian?
Jack_Ervin So what and where are good models?
RobertTarr OSV-Old Sturbridge Village?
Chris_Schwarz Or is there no good "model?"
Adam_Cherubini see, I didn't want to talk about this- schlect
Carole_Valentine LOL
Ellis Okay, lets not
Chris_Schwarz Got it
Adam_Cherubini The Dominy shop is more my idea of a typical shop
William The Nicholson benches they have were based on an unmeasured drawing, not much historical data to go on when the first one was built in the 1970s.
Adam_Cherubini And they don't appear until the 19th century
MikeGnSC where is the Dominy shop?
Adam_Cherubini Winterthur
Ellis Wouldn't the original benches have been typical European benches?
Adam_Cherubini Pennsbury is a poor model, but our heart is in the right place- just liek Wmsburg
MikeGnSC and winterthur is where?...i'm from the have to type slow
William Originally, it was on Long Island. DuPont moved it, intact, to Delaware.
Jeff_Schmidt Yes. They switched later to Nicholson.
Adam_Cherubini French benches- felibien
Jeff_Schmidt Except they did have tailvises, which was not typically French.
William It is outside of Wilmington, towards West Chester, PA.
Chris_Schwarz Can we talk about benches a bit?
MikeGnSC ok...thanks
Adam_Cherubini Worth a trip- and the library has Nicholson
Chris_Schwarz Are we constrained by the gizmos we buy for them?
RobertTarr Ellis, did you ask your Holdfast question?
Ellis Not yet.
Adam_Cherubini Let's put together a bench webpage for beginners and beg Ellis to link it up
Ellis By all means, Adam
Dean_J_in_MN chris, constrained only how clever you can use your bench
Dean_J_in_MN And if you listen, it tells you things
Adam_Cherubini And let's put Jeff and Dean in charge of it
Jeff_Schmidt Chris, don't you think that is true of all of most of our handtools? We generally look for tools to solve problems, not techniques.
Chris_Schwarz I also think we tend to move to unnecessary complexity.
William web page - good idea. I just built two of them. One traditional, one eclectic, to say the least.
Ellis Do you want to discuss the features of a good bench or the differences between different kinds?
Chris_Schwarz Look at hand planes.
Chris_Schwarz Do we need everything on there?
Dean_J_in_MN Ok Adam, I'll stop talking.. . LOL
Adam_Cherubini Gizmos? No. Its the first decision we make, then the die is cast
Chris_Schwarz Yes, but we add things to benches like AC and cruise control.
William Brains solve problems. Tools help. Sometimes they do the job, sometimes they help you build another tool that will do the job.
Adam_Cherubini Dean, I'm not kidding. You're using a bench that no one has used in over 100 years. your experience is important and we want picture dang nabbit
William Some times it takes several iterations.
Dean_J_in_MN I will have a digi camera for use next week.
Ellis Sounds like a plan
Chris_Schwarz Yes Dean. Show us your bench.
Dean_J_in_MN I'll post it on the hand tool side when I get photos.
Adam_Cherubini I'd like to see an updated version of Bob key's page with reasons why and a good basic dimensioned drawing. One with modern joinery and materials, one traditional
Ellis We're all agreed that the bench is the foundation, though?
William We guess that the traditional one I restored was probably built around 1840ish. It has lots of lessons.
Adam_Cherubini Do tell, Sir William?
Jeff_Schmidt And William, we are waiting for round two of pictures of that beast.
William I posted a "before" pic.
Adam_Cherubini Pammy, what kind of bench are you using?
Adam_Cherubini Jeff, didn't you build a Nicholson style bench?
Chris_Schwarz Or is it a beam?
pam Still using my Japanese modified Viet Nam made cheapo.
Adam_Cherubini What does it look like
Adam_Cherubini I'd like to design a bench around the stuff at the local HD, but I'm not convinced everybody can get the same material
pam It's a 5' bench with an end vise and a planing beam attached to the back.
Chris_Schwarz How high is the benchtop?
Jeff_Schmidt Roubo-ish. I do sometimes wish I had a tailvise.
Ellis Ian Kirby did one like that for us, Adam. Quite functional.
Adam_Cherubini And doesn't it have a face vise?
Jeff_Schmidt Legvise
Chris_Schwarz You sure?
Adam_Cherubini Tail vises are over rated
Dean_J_in_MN Jeff, hook on the face?
William We replaced a lot of missing stuff, and worn out stuff. and added trestle feet, to raise it to accommodate modern practices and height. Other than that, it has a wooden leg vise, wooden tail vise with square dogs, and a tool tray,
Jeff_Schmidt Today, I would rather have twin screw face vise.
Adam_Cherubini Sounds Eurpoean. How long?
Ellis What is the best height?
Jeff_Schmidt Oui, Le Hook.
pam Here's what it looks like, . I don't have the front vise.
Chris_Schwarz Height!
William This old one is the only bench in our shop that has a tail vise.
Adam_Cherubini Ellis- lower than most say
Dean_J_in_MN Jeff, do you use holdfasts or pegs on the front left leg with your hook>
Chris_Schwarz When I look at historical drawings it's difficult to say.
William I'll have to get measurements. Much shorter than a Shaker bench.
Ellis Standard planing height seems to be around 33 inches
Jeff_Schmidt Holdfasts.
Chris_Schwarz I was looking at Roubo and they didn't look that low... waist high
Adam_Cherubini That's hard to say, Chris
Chris_Schwarz They had guys in the engraving, working on them.
Adam_Cherubini II guess I trust experimentation too much.
Dean_J_in_MN Adam, do you think iron planes vs. wooden planes change the default bench height?
Ellis Now there's a specific question
Adam_Cherubini No, but I think the planing stop vs the tail vise does
Paul_in_NJ 18th century people were smaller. Wouldn't their benches be shorter?
Jeff_Schmidt Dean might be on to something there.
Adam_Cherubini That's a myth Paul. Maybe shorter than you and I on average. Yes, their benches would be smaller
Chris_Schwarz I certainly get different feedback from wooden planes that has nothing to do with the weight.
Adam_Cherubini Waist high is pretty high. My bench isn't waist high
Ellis What's the rule of thumb?
Chris_Schwarz I know Adam. It was weird. I need to look again. But they didn't look low. I must have gone through half a dozen plates with Joel that night.
Adam_Cherubini The rule of thumb is palm height, and that's probably too high.
Dean_J_in_MN Mine is mid-upper thigh height.
dave_schaefer crotch height???
William We raised its height about 4 " to about 37", IIRC, since we have "very robust" forked tailed apprencices.
Chris_Schwarz We fought bitterly. I argued for lower.
Jeff_Schmidt No but your hands are sitting a good 2 inches above the postion they would have on a Bailey plane
Dean_J_in_MN Right Jeff...
Chris_Schwarz Jeff, I think you have a good point with Dean there.
Chris_Schwarz When I work with wooden planes, I want an even lower bench.
Adam_Cherubini I'm telling you, Chris. Dean and Jeff are DA MEN
Chris_Schwarz Perhaps you need a posse for your column?
Adam_Cherubini One of these guys will likely take over Arts and Mysteries when I burn out
Ellis I made my new bench at about 35 1/2". which is high for a guy who is 5'8". But I have a lower bench for extended planing sessions.
Chris_Schwarz Or a theme song....
Adam_Cherubini RIGHT
Dean_J_in_MN A theme song would be nice.. B
William If you can stand over it, you don't need as heavy a smoother, since your body weight adds to it.
Chris_Schwarz So Ellis, is 35.5 to help your back?
Ellis Forward it to me and I'll make wav files.
Adam_Cherubini Ellis, I think there is this thing where you control the wood loosey goosey under the plane
Adam_Cherubini Without the tail vise or anything except the planing stop
RobertTarr Mine is 35" high (I originally did this to match the height of the TS) and it feels right for me, but I am 6'3"
Ellis That height is for chopping, paring and all the things that I do in the course of a project except extended planing.
Chris_Schwarz I've watched Don McConnell work this way, Adam. And it's hard to describe....
Adam_Cherubini Really? See, this is new to me.
Adam_Cherubini I learned this at Pennsbury
Chris_Schwarz The wood shift, he shifts, the work gets done well...
dave_schaefer just finished a bench @ 33.5" high
Chris_Schwarz Don't know where Don picked it up.
Ellis I think I understand your loosey goosey idea, Adam. You lose leverage as the height creeps up.
Adam_Cherubini I have to take some picturess of those wacky planes there
Chris_Schwarz When I first saw it I was amazed.
Jeff_Schmidt Height seems to be a trade off between jointing, surfacing and doing finer joinery. Oh...and age.
Dean_J_in_MN Chris, he didn't use any battens at all?
Adam_Cherubini Learned a lot using those planes. And too thoughtless to let my friend Paul play with them. Sorry paul
Ellis I admit that age was a slight factor. Plus back troubles.
Chris_Schwarz No Dean. Just a stop.
Jeff_Schmidt Sounds Kirby-esque
pam If you use Japanese planes you can stand a higher bench.
Dean_J_in_MN How wide was the stop? What was it made of?
Chris_Schwarz First saw it at a Woodcraft demo. The stop was real narrow.
Dean_J_in_MN toothed at all?
Ellis Yes, Pam, except that you want to be able to use your shin as a holdfast.
pam Nope, not for planing.
Adam_Cherubini Yeah, I'm not so sure this is different East and West. I'm thinking this is the same
Chris_Schwarz It wasn't his bench. It was metal, squarish, toothed.
Jeff_Schmidt My stop is only 2 inches wide. I am constantly adjusting the board for the line of planing. Sounds like I need to watch Don.
Paul_in_NJ Well I'll just have to visit you again Adam! When do you start at Pennsbury?
RobertTarr I am guilty of using a sharpend drywall screw into a wooden dog (cone of the screw about 1/8 above the plane of the bench) as a planing stop
Dean_J_in_MN OK, I think I know the stop..
Adam_Cherubini We want jigs to hold our boards, and that doesn't make sense in their shops
pam No, Adam, but my hands are a couple or three inches higher when using western planes.
Dean_J_in_MN Jeff, my stop is a 3/4" peg. :)
Chris_Schwarz Serious?
Dean_J_in_MN yes
Chris_Schwarz Dang
Chris_Schwarz You gotta send some photos!
Chris_Schwarz Maybe a mov file.
Dean_J_in_MN but I make use of holdfasts and battens. They are my helpers.
Jeff_Schmidt Dean, do you use a batten with holdfast as well?
Dean_J_in_MN yes
Dean_J_in_MN unless the piece is small, like the table legs, then just the stop.
Adam_Cherubini I'm telling ya Chris
Ellis I used to have 1/2" dowels for the same purpose, Robert. Tap them up to whatever height. Then learn to gauge your plane vectors accordingly.
Chris_Schwarz You constrain the board with a batten on the far side
Dean_J_in_MN yep
Chris_Schwarz Hmm. How do you affix said battens?
Dean_J_in_MN holdfast
pam Screws work.
Chris_Schwarz How many holes do you have in your benchtop?
Dean_J_in_MN 6
Dean_J_in_MN I broke down and added another the other day.
Adam_Cherubini He only needs a couple if he uses a batten
Dean_J_in_MN Right.
pam None, but in my planing beam there were lots, seem to heal over pretty well.
Chris_Schwarz Do you plane really wide stuff, too? 12" wide, etc.?
Adam_Cherubini He can get a lot just by swinging the HF foot
William Intentional or unintentional, too?
Jeff_Schmidt I think the big advantage of only using a stop in lieu of a tailvise is flipping the board around while smoothing.
Chris_Schwarz My stop is narrow and is in my tail vise.
Dean_J_in_MN Yep, that is why I added a new hole. : I needed to stop the board from spining, so I have a second 3/4 peg in line with my plane stop. Those two pegs and a batten and I'm set.
Chris_Schwarz That way I can set it to different heights -- if need be.
Adam_Cherubini Williamsburg says 1 hour/bdft to surface. In my shop its more like 2 minutes. It just isn't worth fussing with.
Dean_J_in_MN 1 hr/bdft!
Adam_Cherubini No comment.
RobertTarr What?!?
Adam_Cherubini I asked several times.
Dean_J_in_MN So that "second" stop is used for wide boards Chris.
gypsydave_in_alabama based on?
Chris_Schwarz Do how do you saw dovetails?
Jeff_Schmidt No, Robert was responding to YOUR time!
Chris_Schwarz Do you have the twin screw?
Dean_J_in_MN Twin screw face
William Chris, Using your tail vise as a stop puts a lot of wear on it. You should be planing in the other direction, and just use the dog in the vise to counter rotational forces.
Dean_J_in_MN on the right hand side
Dean_J_in_MN front left is a wooden hook.
Jeff_Schmidt Ah... Dean has my next bench.
Adam_Cherubini Mine too
Jeff_Schmidt Dean, next you are going to tell me it is 10 feet long.
Dean_J_in_MN You helped Adam.
Chris_Schwarz OK Dean, I have an article to talk to you about.
Dean_J_in_MN No Jeff. 8 feet
Adam_Cherubini Tell him Dean
Dean_J_in_MN 8 feet, only because that is all the longer the maple was
Adam_Cherubini I think it belongs in A&M
Chris_Schwarz I want to feature six benches with dimensioned drawings, a photo and a defense of the design....
Chris_Schwarz from each woodworker.
Chris_Schwarz Not about building it. But about using it.
Adam_Cherubini I'd love to see historic benches in A&M
Adam_Cherubini Right- using, and design
RobertTarr sounds like a very nice article Chris
William Are you interested in hand tool only benches or mixed hand and power shops for this article?
Dean_J_in_MN We can talk. I'm not much of a writer... Or even woodworker.. :)
Chris_Schwarz A mix.
Chris_Schwarz Dean, we will talk. Adam knows I latch onto things a bit...
Dean_J_in_MN I see that. :)
Chris_Schwarz So Dean's bench is one bench. Klausz?
Chris_Schwarz Kirby?
Adam_Cherubini But what you're learning Dean, is important. And not to single you out, because there are others, but I hope you realize how this really is work nobody else is doing
Jeff_Schmidt Adam, we let that little comment about spending 5 nanoseconds surfacing slip. Since we are here to here about your efficiencies, could you go into greater detail on how you are able to do surface prep so quickly?
Dean_J_in_MN Right. The hook already reminded me how to plane...
Adam_Cherubini I think Nicholson v Felibien grudge match, maybe Klaus through in
Chris_Schwarz Excellent.
Jeff_Schmidt Dean's bench sounds like a cross between Roubo and Dominy.
Chris_Schwarz I should talk to Landis then...
Dean_J_in_MN Yep Jeff.
Adam_Cherubini ... per bd ft? How long do you guys spend?
Dean_J_in_MN Only thing is the twin screw is metal screws.
William Defense of bench designs? I work on several. All have lots of shortcomings. Maybe I should try to design two different benches, that back-to-back, will do everything.
Adam_Cherubini I edge joint a 4' 4/4 in maybe 2 minutes
Ellis Do you think there is an ideal bench?
Chris_Schwarz I think there are fewer choices than you might think, Ellis.
Jeff_Schmidt I am fiddling with my plane for 2 minutes. :-)
Adam_Cherubini Me? Yeah. I think the bench that lasted 300 years has got to be in the running
Paul_in_NJ 1 hr/brd foot, was that rough to 4 square?
Ellis I guess I'm just fishing for the most ideal features.
Adam_Cherubini Jeff, that plane is preset and sitting under the bench with 5 others. You reach for it and go. Curved irons help
William I don't, unless it started out with a hydraulic automobile lifter for a base.
Chris_Schwarz Flexibility is No. 1
Jeff_Schmidt Yeah, I hear ya.
Chris_Schwarz Being able to clamp anywhere.
Chris_Schwarz And I won't talk about Shaker vanities.
Adam_Cherubini Length is important
Ellis Then, Jeff Noden's benches should be a good solution, no?
William It would need a patternmaker's vise at one corner.
Adam_Cherubini And technique is a big part of it.
William Jeff's are too short.
William Other than that, it is a very good idea.
Ellis Jeff's bench can be any length you want if you provide the top and rails.
Chris_Schwarz You also need to affix boards so you can work an edge.
Dean_J_in_MN If you don't prep stock on your bench the options change.
Adam_Cherubini I agree with the notion of the p-makers vise. They worked on a narrow range of projects.
Dean_J_in_MN RIgh Chris, I was about to say that.
Chris_Schwarz I don't get Emmerts. Sorry.
William Yeah, but if you make it out of 3" hard maple, and 14' long, you would have a lot of trouble lifting any end with an iron vise on it.
Adam_Cherubini I think edge work is most importnat, since that's what you really need to make joints
Jeff_Schmidt Good point Dean. The typical Frid bench seems better suited towards joinery and light planing.
Dean_J_in_MN Edge jointing is overlooked on lots of benches I see.
Chris_Schwarz We had one for years and I hated it.
Dean_J_in_MN Tell me about it William, mine is 4" 8' hard maple and heavy...
Chris_Schwarz Dean, it's a major omission.
William Chris, you don't need the Emmert for traditional joinery, but it helps out a lot for carving, shaping, and other fine, up-close work. A Shaker wouldn't have much use for it.
Adam_Cherubini We here should concern ourselves with removing the road blocks for the next generation. Benches are one of the biggest
Dan_D William, add a hydraulic system to raise and lower it ;-)
Jeff_Schmidt Adam, what tool(s) is a must-have for you, not part of the typical 18th century inventory?
Dan_D Buy an old car lift from a garage
Chris_Schwarz William, I guess I do a lot of shaping and never miss the Emmert. Chairs, etc.
Adam_Cherubini Jeff, I have only an electric wood lathe. Otherwise, all of my tools are part of the typical 18th-century inventory.
William Yeah, that's where I started from, a while back. The only problem with most of them is that they rotate on the central cylinder.
Adam_Cherubini Maybe sharpening stuff
Chris_Schwarz So Adam, did you start learning 18th century stuff...
RobertTarr Adam, how often do you reach for the hatchet while doing rough stock prep etc., versus a scrub type plane?
Adam_Cherubini I tried that fancy sandpaper from Joel. I really like it
William Yeah, I've built chairs without one. I just find it saves a lot of time when repositioning the work.
Chris_Schwarz ... or did you start with Stanley planes?
Jeff_Schmidt What sandpaper is that? Shark skin?
Chris_Schwarz William,
Chris_Schwarz I guess I'll have to take another look. You wouldn't pull my leg...
Chris_Schwarz Shaptons.
Paul_in_NJ Electric lights are a must for me!
Chris_Schwarz Goodness, we do need to get Adam to do a column on sandpaper.
Adam_Cherubini I have only a few stanley planes, A #4, #7, both ground straight for fixing other planes. I went to woodies early on. I guess I had a good experience with them-
Chris_Schwarz I've been obsessed with sandpaper Adam.
William I bought it early, and learned how to carve and shape legs on it. When I'm working and don't have it, I spend a lot more time thinking about sequence, and how to make my next cut. With the Emmert it became automatic.
Adam_Cherubini Sandpaper for sharpening on. I don't use sandpaper on wood. That's like cleaning glass by smearing moly grease on it.
Dean_J_in_MN what is this sandpaper you speak of? :)
Chris_Schwarz The stuff in Gabriel's inventory.
Adam_Cherubini Dean, it's mylar-backed micro-grit 3M stuff. E-mail later and I'll give you a list of what I have and recommend.
Chris_Schwarz I've got to dig it up, but it's been around a while. The question is how much it was used.
Chris_Schwarz What specifically was it used for?
William automotive
Adam_Cherubini Sorry dean I missed the joke there
Dean_J_in_MN Thats ok.
Adam_Cherubini Chris, I think that's a red herring
Dean_J_in_MN I gave up on sandpaper sharpening, I couldn't avoid rounded edges.
Jeff_Schmidt Same here, Dean
William The 3M guys came to CJWA this month, and handed out a bunch of samples. PSA backed, and very flat. It might work for SS™
Chris_Schwarz So sandpaper didn't come into use until much later? 19th century? 20th?
Adam_Cherubini Its an exception guys reach for to suggest planes weren't as good then or contemporary surfaces are representative
Jeff_Schmidt I think that Don McConnell has a different view on that Chris.
Adam_Cherubini They had it, and I'm sure some shops used it. But it doesn't fit into the shop as I understand them
Chris_Schwarz Was it a low-quality item perhaps?
Chris_Schwarz The flakeboard of the 18th century?
Adam_Cherubini Surface finishes were different then. Attitudes concerning surfaces were different
Dean_J_in_MN What was the "go to" surface finish Adam?
Chris_Schwarz Is that why there's so much carving? (joke)
Adam_Cherubini Not necessarily, but i guess i think woodworkers then and now did/should concern themselves more with sillouette than surface finish
Ellis Explain, please.
Adam_Cherubini Dean, real research is needed here and there is no smoking gun. I'd say whatever it was was dry and rough.
Chris_Schwarz Jeff, not following... Don's the one who let me in on the Gabriel inventory. ???
Adam_Cherubini Ellis, woodworkers are obsessed with wood. We love it. But you don't see that grain in your house. You walk past a big brown blob.
Paul_in_NJ Like a Windsor chair I think, Ellis.
Adam_Cherubini Exactly
Adam_Cherubini What would you see in a house with two windows anyway
Jeff_Schmidt Chris, I was saying that I believe Don would say that sandpaper was used more than we think.
Chris_Schwarz Jeff, agreed.
Ellis Hey, I live in that house... :-)
Dean_J_in_MN Or the Shakers and the use of paint on their furniture. More common then I first thought.
William ...and you see the shadows on the moldings and carvings, you see the shape and proportions, and the curves of the legs.
Adam_Cherubini Yeah right Jeff. He has said that. And even if its true, its not helpful.
Ellis Good point about the perspective of woodworkers.
Adam_Cherubini Its not helpful because it implies something that isn't fundamentally true
Chris_Schwarz OK, this gets at a fundamental question I'm interested in.
Adam_Cherubini But the whole truth is that we have no clue what they used it for or where. DeMuzio says the furniture was refinished 5 years after it was made.
pam I wonder if we don't prefer furniture that fits in rather than yelling at us.
Chris_Schwarz Not to mention the new feet it got....
Jeff_Schmidt But the surfaces of the 18th works that I have seen in museums were very, very smooth, including curved surfaces such as cabriole legs. Were these refinished?
Adam_Cherubini Watson says they replaced all the windows in Philly by 1800
William What no "original finish" that the antique dealers tout so highly?
Chris_Schwarz Skinned finish?
pam I know I don't react all that well to garish grains.
Adam_Cherubini Jeff- refinished 100 times
Ellis Most of the best period furniture was pretty subtle, too, Pam.
Chris_Schwarz What we know is that it was there. Like a chisel or a striking knife.
Adam_Cherubini Refinished at each dusting, plus real mechanical refinishing early on
Ellis But, but....
dave_schaefer I think the idea of partially forming wood with the use of sand grit is older than most think. The Eskimos of AK used it io help form wood, ivory, bone. If these folks knew the techniques, then it is silly to think that other cultures didn't.
Chris_Schwarz And it would be interesting to see what good it would do in a period piece.
Adam_Cherubini Right William. I laugh at that, too.
Ellis Right, Dave.
Jeff_Schmidt Well, the Japanese never took to pushing planes :-)
Adam_Cherubini Why sand when you can plane, or shave or file, or scrape? What purpose does it serve? It serves modern craftsman who hasn't the tool to plane or shave or file or scrape.
William The furniture makers down by the boats used mahogany because the labor was less, because it was easy to work, predictable, and definitly not garish. That's why I like working it.
Chris_Schwarz Power sanding, certainly.
Adam_Cherubini And its stable!
Adam_Cherubini I'm talking about mahogany.
William Yes, of course.
Adam_Cherubini And people liked dark.
William And it doesn't move as much if you wipe of the top of the table with a wet rag every day.
Adam_Cherubini I suspect it contrasted with their whitish walls and darkish rooms
William Dark is good, especially if you have a smoky cooking fire place in the same room.
Chris_Schwarz But I've heard it put that sandpaper was the last touch. Short. Blending the different surface treatments (planing, scraping etc). Bunk?
Adam_Cherubini Yep.
Jeff_Schmidt Well, I see a guy like Phil Lowe use sandpaper in a way that I can envision it being used in the 18th century. He will smooth, scrape and then give it a light sanding with sanding block.
William Or a warming fireplace in the front parlor.
Alan_B Adam - do I understand you correctly in that no finish, or a wash coat, or paint was what was used?
Adam_Cherubini I don't get it. He may do that because his esthetic or his customers demand it. I leave plane marks beause I think that's how it was.
William Chris, that's the way we use it, to even things out, make everything uniform, so the stain doesn't surprise us.
Adam_Cherubini I leave tear out, too.
Chris_Schwarz LOL
Ellis Absolutely.
Chris_Schwarz I'm going to send you some scrapers.
Jeff_Schmidt NOW we understand the 5 nanoseconds/board foot. :-)
dave_schaefer Adam, you sand because the culture you're in hasn't gotten to the iron stage in woodworking.
William Our customers seem to put a lot of emphasis on color, and on the feel of the surfaces they touch.
Adam_Cherubini I'm not kidding! Some lady from New England will pay extra for that piece. If she wanted a repro that looked new, she could go to Ethan Allen.
Chris_Schwarz Color is affected by the tool that worked the wood last...
William I'd prefer to just use planes and scrapers, but getting a consistent finish takes a lot longer, and a lot more brain power when the deadline is looming.
Adam_Cherubini Finishes are hell- I say paint it or oil it and forget it
Chris_Schwarz William, are you working to please you (very demanding) or your customers (not as sharp eyed as you)?
Ellis Finishes can take half the time of completing a piece.
Adam_Cherubini They better not.
William Chris, Yes :^)
Dean_J_in_MN I'm with Adam. Oil is my go-to finish.
William I have to please the customer first.
Adam_Cherubini Nothing really protects the wood, right? Its all just esthetics, right?
Jeff_Schmidt I don't spend much time on finishes because I have 5 kids who are going to "distress" it in no time.
Adam_Cherubini 5 Jeff? 5?
Jeff_Schmidt So far. :-)
Adam_Cherubini My wife doesn't want me to do ball-and-claw work for the same reason.
Chris_Schwarz Historical finishes... another good A & M topic.
Ellis I use Waterlox for most stuff. It protects much better than straight oils.
Adam_Cherubini Against what?
William I think I need a finish that is quick, and more importantly, quick and easy to repair. We use blown on shellac, and blown on lacquer on top of that for table tops.
Paul_in_NJ Patina
Ellis Moisture and rings and stains and dirt, mostly.
William Waterlox is good stuff, especially for kitchens.
Chris_Schwarz If your servants oil it every few months.....
pam I have to say that since I've starting using Japanese planes I've become very fond of unfinished wood.
Jeff_Schmidt Waterlox is easy to repair as well.
Adam_Cherubini Try that one again Ellis. No finish doesn't get rings? dirt? You need to protect against UV light.
Adam_Cherubini So the finish is really protecting the finish.
Ellis No, I don't want to protect against UV. And yes Waterlox protects against all kinds of assaults.
Adam_Cherubini I love you Buddy, don't get mad at me! (ducking)
William I don't ever get rings on my WaterLox'd cherry kitchen table. My Watco'd computer table finish is about gone.
Ellis Come see my kitchen table after 25 years.
Adam_Cherubini UV is the enemy. Did you go to the Lewis and Clark exhibit in Philly?
William I'm fixing shellac'd finishes for rings all the time.
Chris_Schwarz We have a lot higher expectations perhpas as to how long a piece should go before it is refinished
Jeff_Schmidt Pam, is that because Japanese planes give you a surface that lends itself to no finish?
Ellis No, Adam, sadly. Is it still on?
Adam_Cherubini I asked why the exhibit was so dark. They get fined if the artifacts received more lumens than the curator allows
Chris_Schwarz Hence, poly, film finishes in general.
pam Seems so, Jeff, kind of burnished.
Jeff_Schmidt Yeah, but William, you can just slather some more Watco on that table.
Ellis UV is the enemy if the piece is subject to a lot of daylight.
Adam_Cherubini Or uneven light
pam Adam, tell them to check out Nuvir lighting.
Chris_Schwarz With a film finish...
Chris_Schwarz UV is a problem
Adam_Cherubini Yes the exhibit is still on, but not for much longer and it won't be back for 100 years!
William Jeff, I understand. Yes, it's great. Unlike poly, it doesn't shatter when scratched. The scratch is there, but when you put more on, the white color disappears.
Adam_Cherubini You got me there Pam. What's Nuvir lighting?
Ellis I should haul my sorry self south.
Adam_Cherubini Pay no attention to the historic tools, though
Adam_Cherubini The maps are cool
pam It's fairly new, stands for "no uv or infrared," lots of museums get them, you get very bright, white light with almost no typical exposure problems.
Ellis What did the eighteenth century craftsmen use for a finish? Spirit varnish?
William Jeff, I also recommend Waterlox for wooden floors.
Chris_Schwarz I saw some historic tools of Lewis and Clark at an exhibit in St. Louis, including a Millers Falls eggbeater.
Jeff_Schmidt Shellac
Adam_Cherubini Oil?
Adam_Cherubini Nothing?
Chris_Schwarz Paint?
Adam_Cherubini wax?
Ellis :-)
Iowegan Hand oils, the oils from whale lamps and candle wax.
Adam_Cherubini All good answers. Unfortunatley we don't know which one is correct
Jeff_Schmidt But at Williamsburg......:-)
Chris_Schwarz The all have rip saws.
dave_schaefer they are all correct..
Adam_Cherubini they look marvelous!
Rob_in_KS Dang it, I hate to drop out now, but I gota go. Looking forward to the rest of this in the archive and my 1st Pop.WW.
Chris_Schwarz Bye Rob
William Of course we don't because the original finishes are long gone, in spite of what they say on Antiques Roadshow.
Ellis :-)
Adam_Cherubini Good. He left. Now lets talk about him. :-)
Chris_Schwarz Tetley's huh?
Dean_J_in_MN Chris/Adam - Only rip at Williamsburg, or Xcut filed saws as well?
Adam_Cherubini LOL
Ellis I'm not leaving. :-)
Chris_Schwarz Good Question.. Adam?
Adam_Cherubini Only rip, but rip with qualifiers
Dean_J_in_MN what rake?
Chris_Schwarz A 15° fleam qualifier?
Adam_Cherubini They increase rake on finer pitches, and accept the loss in speed, or ignore it.
Adam_Cherubini No fleam.
Adam_Cherubini 30 degrees?
Adam_Cherubini On a 12-tooth
Wayne_Anderson Gotta go...feel free to talk about handplanes now...;^)
Chris_Schwarz See you wayne.
Adam_Cherubini Bye Wayne
Chris_Schwarz So about infills...
Adam_Cherubini Did I mention I got one cheap? I think it may have been stolen.
Chris_Schwarz Whose name is on it?
Adam_Cherubini Psst. Buddy.
Adam_Cherubini Wanna buy an infill?
Chris_Schwarz Stop it. It hurts. LOL
Jeff_Schmidt Only if it has that cool front end like Chris's.
Adam_Cherubini Nobody's. Its been filed like every other piece of hardware in Philly.
Chris_Schwarz It's probably been chopped and dropped by now.
Chris_Schwarz ...with flames.
Dean_J_in_MN And a toothed blade.
Adam_Cherubini Its worse than that.
Iowegan Those infills are so hard to set up. I always take a Nicholson 49 to the mouth to open it up a little.
Dean_J_in_MN I had to file the mouth open... But it is OK now.
Chris_Schwarz And an upside-down blade with the wrong breaker.
Jeff_Schmidt Get good tearout like Adam now? :-)
Adam_Cherubini You know it's sitting on some mulyacks shelf next to some burned up router bits, covered in mdf dust
William I tried to write a few words about it and the scum who stole it. I ended up not posting any of them. Sorry, Chris.
Chris_Schwarz It's just a thing.
Chris_Schwarz Was.
Russ_Allen I thought it was great the pw picked up the tab on the replacement.
Dean_J_in_MN So Adam, no fleam. And I have only one small saw with fleam.
Chris_Schwarz Russ, yes, insurance was a wonderful invention. 18th century perhaps?
William But Wayne built you another one, and both he and you still have the skills and the love of tools. All that guy's got is a cold piece of metal, that he can't show to anyone who would really appreciate it.
Adam_Cherubini Yeah, I have two and I'm not giving them up. I'm not sure they (Williamsburg) are right, but I respect their guts to forgo without documented evidence.
Chris_Schwarz Nice way to put it, Adam.
Chris_Schwarz William, it might surface some day. And maybe Clarence Blanchard will get to auction it off.
Dean_J_in_MN I was about to refile a 16" backsaw I picked up, but tried it as setup, rip but 20+ rake... Crosscuts well much to my suprise.
Chris_Schwarz And I'll get to write about it.
Adam_Cherubini Was it? I meant that they skipped them because they didn't have evidence, if that's clearer. Tetely starting to kick in or wear off.
William It should bring quite a price, what with its notoriety.
Adam_Cherubini Dean, then leave it and tell us how it works for you. Article #2, Chris!
Chris_Schwarz Noted!
Ellis Hear hear
William I sure enjoyed the back page article about his last adventure. Too bad you only had one page to tell the story.
Dean_J_in_MN So you think Moxon's description of saw filing is poor, that he overlooked cross cut saws?
Adam_Cherubini I've tried using my 0 rake monsters and I don't like it.
Chris_Schwarz William, yeah, but you got to hear the whole thing....
Adam_Cherubini They may not have distinguished between the two.
Chris_Schwarz We should wrap this up.
Adam_Cherubini Yeah, I have a meeting in the morning
Chris_Schwarz OK all, thanks for coming.
Dean_J_in_MN Thanks all, very interesting!
William I owe you some Chimay, the next time we get together, in thanks for the experience. Once in a lifetime.
pam So, what happened to the striking knife discussion?
Ellis Thank you much, Chris and Adam.
Chris_Schwarz We'll do this again soon.
Russ_Allen Thanks everyone.
Alan_B Thanks, Asam, Chris, Wllis
Adam_Cherubini This has been great fun. A lot more fun than last time, since I got off a dial up.
Jeff_Schmidt Thanks Adam and all. Bye
Paul_in_NJ Thanks all
Ellis Looks like it will have to be a messageboard topic, Pam.
Adam_Cherubini Sorry Pam. To be contuinued...
Chris_Schwarz It has been a messageboard topic!
Ellis Adam, thank you. Chris, this is a wonderful start to your handtool chat legacy.
William Great discussion, guys. Adam said the mystery wasn't about the knife.
Adam_Cherubini Thanks Ellis
Chris_Schwarz It's not.
Dan_D Very interesting night. Thanks to everyone that came.
Dean_J_in_MN Cue Adam's theme....
Chris_Schwarz I'll turn this "log" thingy off now. Then you can *really* talk trash.
William Well, today, I got the fire bricks and the torch, and the peanut oil, so I can harden mine.
Adam_Cherubini Good night gentlemen